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27 thoughts on “Oscar Pistorius Case Discussion – Open Forum”
Hopefully more WS refugees join us here in the run up to the sentencing judgement!
Hey jitty 🙂 Feel free to bring over any topics that were mid-discussion.
Per Lemon Mousse
“Consequently, although frightened, the accused armed himself to shoot if there was someone in the bathroom and when there was he did”.
SCA Judgement page 30.
And yes…it is Dolus Directus. That is why Leach lamented that this was not put before them.
As Nel said, the intention was formed in the bedroom.”
A very critical point. When do you intend to arrive in Miami? When you step off the plane? When you grab a taxi to the airport? When you book your tickets?
IMO Oscar’s intention began to be formed when he started carrying around a loaded gun.
That airport analogy is excellent! Yes, absolutely, there was intention when Oscar picked up his gun. Taking it a step further, the intention was solidified when he removed the holster and safety, especially since he knew it was loaded.
With what it was loaded is important. Dum Dum treated point bullets are illegal to own… He owned them and used them. There is no chance of recovery from taking a bullet like that.
Making my way here from WS and the closed OP thread. I won’t have the legal knowledge of MrJitty or the sleuthing skills of Judge Judy to add to the discussion but I might occasionally say something funny. Thank you Juror13 for making this space available.
We look forward to that 🙂 Welcome!
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Hi all. So here we are…
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If it was Dolus Directus (and Nick and I think it was) what was Oscar’s motive for ‘purposefully’ murdering Reeva? And have your opinions on that changed over time? If yes, why?
I think the shots came as a result of a business decision. I think it was as reasoned and cold blooded as that. No sexy hot motive involved at that juncture, no rage involved either, though god knows what went on before then. Well actually, the scene and Reevas injuries tell us what went on before then, and there was a fight. I think he was ending any chance for police to be contacted, and nothing more. I think he had no intention of allowing his image to take a hit, and consequently, his wallet.
completely agree with you mel m….
Worth googling astrological commentary on Oscar Pistorius and Reeva Steenkamp …… Very interesting as to what unfolded.. See Jo Jo savards insights on you tube .. Rage and jealousy seems a common thread in all the astrological breakdowns of the event..
I still have questions that the state never addressed, and am curious if anyone else has wondered the same things….
There was an interviewed Oscar gave to a magazine long before the murder, and it contained a photo of the items he always kept on his nightstand by his bed. Along with his Taurus handgun he used in the murder, there were also his keys on a key ring that included his car key, a remote, and skeleton keys to doors in his house. During the trial, he claimed he had to break through the toilet door where Reeva was to get to the keys to unlock the door. He used the same keys to unlock the front door. Does that mean Reeva had his keys in her possession just to use the toilet? A cell phone and a set of keys taken into the toilet doesn’t sound like a casual nightly pee. Oscar claimed his bedroom door had been previously damaged, and so had the lock that was broken. If Oscar had locked the bedroom door to prevent Reeva from leaving, and she then grabbed his keys and locked herself in the toilet, Oscar would need to damage his bedroom door to get himself out if he didn’t have those keys right away. The state never asked Oscar if the key that Reeva used to lock the toilet door, was the only key in the house that could be used. Instead of being forced to use a cricket bat.
That brings me to housekeeper Frank. Did he not have a set of keys? Could he not have helped Oscar carry Reeva down the stairs? All of Oscar’s shouting for help from his balcony and never shouting at the only other person alive sleeping inside his own house.
Why was Frank allowed to remain invisible in all this? Did the state already assume he had been paid handsomely to stick with the ridiculous story that he slept soundly while neighbors, houses away, heard the noises?
Oscar had two phones, the state only focused on one and failed to address the other his family left with that same morning. Why is that?
Why didn’t the state ask about the pair of jeans on the ground outside the bathroom window? Were there dishes or utensils in the sink or counter that had residue on them that matched the contents found by the ME in Reeva’s stomach? Who washed the dishes after dinner? Reeva? Frank? Oscar?
Oscar claimed he was helping Reeva with her TV show contract that night. Given the fact she was a lawyer, and he ran as fast as he could for a living, what was the advice he gave her?
So…Reeva does all the laundry that day. Oscar has had a bad day and gets home shortly after Reeva arrives at his house. Reeva makes dinner and talks about her blossoming TV career and new contract. We know she was excited about it because her father said she paid their cable bill that day so they could watch the first episode. She tells Oscar she has a Valentine’s Day gift for him, she is leaving in a little while, and tells him not to open it until it is actually Valentine’s Day, while she will be in Johannesburg that morning delivering a speech about domestic violence to school girls. It seems there wasn’t very much in Reeva’s end of the conversation or her plans that included Oscar sufficiently that night. He had a bad day, and Reeva was still going to Johannesburg, and still talking about her own career. Maybe she mentioned her new exciting TV show to her ex-boyfriend two days before while Oscar phoned her repeatedly even though he knew she was having lunch with him at that exact same time. Maybe Reeva cooked dinner right away that night so he couldn’t blame a tantrum on hunger, as he had done before, embarrassing her in front of friends and people to whom she wanted to make a good first impression.
The state did an adequate job during trial, but they also left out some questions that glaringly deserved answers. Questions that would not have just “tripped him up” but questions that would have exposed the scenario they were trying to prove.
I sat next to a guy in trial who started crying when Oscar removed his prosthesis. I made a sarcastic remark that I wished the ITV special had been released before sentencing; that way the court and everyone else would have gotten something substantial from Oscar. The guy said why, everything has been revealed in court. Well, of course it hasn’t. Cracked Artifact here are a few:
– what happened to Oscar’s cellphone records
– why were they wiped
– who wiped them [Carl]
– what is Carl’s story?
– what happened to the Netcare911 call recording?
– where is the Malwaian gardener?
– how did the second pair of jeans end up where they did?
These are just a few unanswered questions. Many are unanswered because the prosecution and defence agreed on a deal, Carl would not be an accessory if Hilton Botha not be involved, and the cellphone records they did have be introduced by a third party.
The fact that Oscar’s been found guilty of murdering an intruder and not Reeva shows to what extent the defence and Oscar succeeded in bullshitting the public and the legal process.
Which is why it is left to the court of public opinion to bring the true narrative to life. #Shakedown and you are part of that important process.
Is there any backstory on Botha?
He seems to have gone out of his way to damage the State case.
I do wonder if he deliberately allowed the iPhone to walk
It was because of Botha that Carl P got away with crime scene tampering. We know a lot of stuff went on behind the scenes to cover OP’s tracks, and if Botha did turn a blind eye, was it because he was threatened or paid off?
Nick, thank you for your reply. I guess we will never have the answers to some important questions, and others that can be explained because of deals made to avoid putting an alleged shady investigator on the stand. Thank you for explaining that.
The actions taken to protect Oscar seems to have been an entire clan effort. If SCA had enough evidence to overturn Masipa’s decision, and Masipa has a history of being tough on offenders of crimes against women, what are your thought about her many moments of “coddling” Oscar during the trial?
Bad history with Nell? Isn’t she expected to retire soon? I am asking because her actions in this case seemed to not align with her reputation.
Perhaps you can shed some light on areas where I have no knowledge about this judge.
I’d heard she had polio which gave her something of a disability, and I intuited from this that she’d probably grant Oscar more leeway than another judge. When I saw her firsthand in court, labouring up the stairs to her chair and back again I realised the extent of her disability. I hope that the SCA countering her judgement has perhaps cleared her mind of bias. I’m not convinced though, I think bias is still there, I just think she may be more aware of it now.
What do y’all think of Judge Greenland’s [legally informed] recommendation that Oscar do 15 years under house arrest?
I was stunned by his recommendation and still am. While I understand that it’s legally informed, I think that even within those confines it’s much too kind to Oscar. Greenland put forth 19 points on social media in answer to his critics that were findings of the court and explained a judge is bound to these in sorting sentence. A few I didn’t see on his list though were the finding that Oscar was untruthful, the finding that he’d failed to give an explanation to the court as to why he fired the shots, and the one stating that disability was not a license to kill. We also know now that Oscar flicked the court off in refusing to take the stand for himself but within a recent timeframe appeared on television to offer his untested version. Well, turns out versions. Again. While Greenland emphasized the limits imposed on a judge in relation to upholding the courts findings, I do remember him remarking a few months back about the wide discretion Masipa actually has in the matter. Look, I’ve no legal knowledge and I’m not even South African, but if a component of justice in SA law is indeed justice ‘being seen to be done’, with respect to Judge G, this just wouldn’t look like it to me, and evidently it doesn’t to a few thousand others. How would house arrest satisfy the wishes of the parents? I don’t know how much weight is given secondary victims but someone else remarked that Barry Steenkamp didn’t pour his heart out to the court to affect house arrest for Pistorius, and I have to agree. Beyond that I think it would fall short of justice due to the seriousness of this crime, the loss of a life.
Dear Nick and Lisa.. Just to say that I have all your books on Pistorius and Reeva… So insightful and fascinating… Your recent audios open many doors of deeper thought in regard to this tragedy… I am not one to normally follow true crimes but this case has for some reason really impacted…. At the core of it all the one missing piece of the puzzle remains hidden…..the trigger that sent OP spiralling out of control with such hatred.. What exactly that was we may never know..but I suspect it was… Something very hidden,very ,dark and very very raw…. You both have a great intuitive gift…. Brilliant! Thank you!
dear khejok..,i believe pistorius is a psychopath..both he and jodi arias took out their “loves” in a brutal vicious attack..psychopaths have an internal rage, that they very rarely show..with both of them,it was just a question of “when”.. Both of them were just about to lose their “loves”..Reeva found out that night who the real oscar was..(a very nasty piece of work) and rather than allow her to tell the world,he killed her. Nike tend not to sponsor psychopaths..all the clues to their psychopothy were there..one of Travis Alexanders’ last e mails says to Arias, “i know you’re a sociopath”..he just found out too late..so did Reeva.
Thanks Khejok. It’s amazing what one can learn when one simply pays attention for an extended period. I think the difference between narrators on the one hand and the media and even lawyers involved on the other, is a narrator is able [or should be able] to focus on a single project without being distracted by the next thing. Paying attention in this world turns out to be a very rare thing, these days parents and children hardly pay sufficient attention to each other, so uncovering the truth in true crime requires a real concentrated effort. Anyway, thanks for reading. It’s you guys that make it worthwhile for us, knowing we’re reaching you out there, wherever you are. I guess that’s at least some measure of justice if not in court, then in the court of public opinion.
Then let us pray collectively that in the case of Judge Masipas’sentencing of Mr Pistorius that’The Quality of Mercy is not Strained ‘( as in the definition.. Extended beyond limits)… Anyway, if not appropriate for this heinous crime,then I hope Mr Nel will appeal …A true Dharma (truth) Warrior of our time…. A fearless voice for Reeva and her family
Addit..per above..strained..extended beyond proper limits….
I am so utterly disappointed in all of this and the SA justice system! Sending the poor boy to be sentenced again by the same awe struck judge? What on earth? His interview was shameful, no other words to describe it! I followed the trial, every blog, article,analysis, book….he is guilty of dolls directus but what can we do. I have absolutely no faith in the judge and truly believe I will be further disappointed and disgusted tomorrow.
Thank you Lisa and nick for your continued fight for justice!
Firstly, thank you for the great articles! It was extremely upsetting to see Judge Masipa’s lack of concern for Reeva’s family and how she really seemed to portray Oscar as the real victim. The more she said, the more I read, the stronger that feeling, But why? Was it in part because of the SCA ruling? I know she must be getting close to the end of her career but she’s going to leave a bad reputation behind her, could she be so upset with the SCA that she slaps back at them? it sure seems like it and not just to me, I think many people saw it that way. There is something terribly wrong going on here and it also smacks of corruption (rich white people vs the law), and for awhile it was quieted by the SCA’s ruling but now Masipa has stirred a hornet’s nest again and I swear if she doesn’t get a kick out of doing so, There was a short televised interview with a supposed fried of Masipa’s who told the interviewer that Masipa refused to give “the public what they wanted in the Oscar trial because that’s what THEY wanted” Shouldn’t it be what justice wants? what justice requires? Maybe she’s been in power too long maybe she feels her word IS LAW but “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” and it seems to have cast that shadow on Masipa No-one can tell her what to do not even the SCA apparently! Also, though retired I worked in forensic accounting and it would be great if the NPA would do a check into Oscar’s finances. There were several articles published about “Oscar and the Diamonds” about Oscar’s visit to the Johannesberg Diamond trade a month or two before he was sentenced the first time. There were also articles the previous year about his owning SEVERAL homes in Silverwood Estates, not just his own as well as bank accounts in other countries, etc. So the money didn’t vanish and it all did not go into Roux’s pockets (as deep as those are!) It exists somewhere, even if he put it into a trust in Aimee’s name or someone else’s. As astute as his wealthy Uncle Arnold is, I’m sure that there must have been a “cap” or arrangement with Roux and others just for the publicity. The main reason I’m writing about this is for the Steenkamp family. I wish they would do a civil suit and also be able to hire a forensic accountant. There were so many lies told by the defense about the fact that he is “broke”, it may look that on paper with what? 50 in the bank, but follow the money trail, spread out, search. When Roux talked about his hate of firearms in this last sentencing, almost fell off my chair!! Does anyone else remember what the papers say Oscar did the weeks following Reeva’s death? He went and bought MORE guns and ones identical to those seized by the police, to replace those taken. Hmmmm how things change when you’re lying for your life…..I know this is terribly long, sorry!! ps a few of the news articles I mentioned still exist but a LOT were immediately pulled by Oscar’s PR team
brilliant post tess..when i read that he was broke, i believed it !!! He’s lied about EVERYTHING up till now, so it makes sense he would be lying about his finances…
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